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Posted by sambosteve

From: Biggy
Date: 05/04/04 02:19 PM

Although this punching style gives Fedor alot of power when he ground and pounds, I am not sure its the only reason for how hard he hits from the guard. Kharitonov also showed hard ground and pound when he fought Cory Peterson, but his punches were a little more straight. I think Russian Top Team spends a good amount of time in their training on hitting pads on the ground.

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From: Ghost

In regards to what we've been talking about.
I've read over some of the debates here, and I'm rather impressed by the insights of various users here. In MMA, we're presented with variety on every scale, and striking is no different. Thanks to those of you who are as wise in this, as we're in a good position to educate others here.

Fedor's punching style isn't something I'd call european, or even foreign, by any means. Rather, boxing in and of itself... the art of throwing the hook, the cross, and the jab, footwork, moving, etc... has become somewhat Americanized, and with that, has brought many elements to the art of striking that have become standard, as they've been proven effective time and time again by athletes long preceeding us.

"Range striking", as I've call it, can be used effectively in a variety of ways, mainly in combination with effective footwork and positioning, or as an "X-factor" in a combination that takes your opponent's eyes off of your attack for even a second, such as momentum-driven hooks.

The processes for building up strength and speed with these punches are different than that of the high-repetition stress workouts we conventionally do in boxing. Rather, when training effective range striking, I'm finding myself doing sets wide-grip (pull-ups and push-ups, benches and militaries), as well as resistance (rubber band) repetition workouts. Reason? Compact strength (tight style... think boxing) is distributed from one place, while range strength can come from anywhere at anytime.

By no means do I consider range striking an effective method in all situations, but in instances where your opponent is retreating or backed into a corner, there's no better way to effectivly isolate your opponent than to start throwing bombs from where he doesn't see them. More often than not, it scares him into rigidity, and sets up the fight-winner (kick, punch, knockdown) in a striking situation.

There was an argument earlier about how someone saw short hooks and straight punches as a quick and effective counter to this style... and that is very, very true... if you walk into the flurry of a puncher throwing wing bombs and looping punches, yer asking for it. However, say you go toe to toe enough to land a good one and stumble your opponent... it may be a good time to pivot and dig in to one side, and let er rip from where he doesn't see it coming. The ones you don't see ALWAYS hurt more than the ones you do.

You'll notice Chuck used this style YEARS before Fedor unleashed upon Pride with it. You HAVE to know that Pitmaster's been workin it.

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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 05/05/04 09:03 AM

Ghost:
I respectfully disagree that Chuck throws his punches like that. Chuck swings and lobs, Fedor casts and waves.

Also, as for it not being foreign...casting and waving have been a part of Russian MAs for hundreds of years. I can count the times of have seen Americans/Westerns use casting and waving on one finger.

Otherwise, nice post!

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From: Ghost
Date: 05/05/04 12:03 PM

"I respectfully disagree that Chuck throws his punches like that. Chuck swings and lobs, Fedor casts and waves.
Also, as for it not being foreign...casting and waving have been a part of Russian MAs for hundreds of years."

It's not that I'm so much saying that the difference between the styles is based upon geography,... what I AM saying, however, is that "conventional striking" as we know it has tended to lean more towards compact stylings, which leaves little room for expansive understanding of techniques such as casting, or range striking. Hence why I said compact striking is more "Americanized"... people thinkin Striking, they think Boxing most of the time, not Russian Military.

Boxing coaches would bust my chops till the bitter end if they saw me throwing some of the punches Fedor and Chuck throw, and if you really narrow it down there Ausgepicht, you'll see the two styles aren't much different at all. Chuck is a little more deliberate with his straight punches than Fedor, but other than that, I see very few nuances between the two essentials in their technique.

Good debate though, BRO.

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From: CANADIAN
Date: 05/05/04 05:52 PM

This is a very good thread, and shows how even mma fans are starting to see stengths and weaknesses of styles etc. And not just a guy just punching. But to analize what is actually going on. I really feel that some of the best strikers out thier have been using this style or somthing similar to it, like Fedor, Igor Vovchanchyn, Liddel a bit and even a little of tank abbot.
This might be one of the best striking pucnching styles for a street fight since it seems to take out guys so fast with so much power etc. I feel though that it will also be a reason of Fedors down fall. someone will catch him while he is doing those looping punches coz it leaves his head open for brief periods. And this may very well be the way to beat him. S straight puncher like Mino might be able to pull it off if he continues to work on his boxing skills.

Has anyone ever been succesfull in pro boxing with this style ever before? and what happens when a boxer with this style fights another boxer? Since thier are not any pro boxers out thier that are succesfull with this style, I would think it might have it's weakness thier.

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From: Biggy
Date: 05/05/04 12:57 PM

sorry to hijack this thread guys but watch the last few seconds of this vid... it has guys doing some group sparring outside..... its some funny lookin shit although I imagine there is a purpose for it.

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From: poobear
Date: 05/06/04 06:51 AM

The guys on the video aren't doing systema, although the striking elements are common to both styles. That's another style of Russian martial art called (iirc) Slaviano Gretska'y Borba (spelling sucks). Means 'hill wrestling'. They claim inheritors of a Russian peasant tradition. A 'folk style'.
Systema (by which I mean systema as taught by Mssrs. Vasiliev and Ryabko) is a synthetic, imo, in that it includes elements from many traditions. It is a military style, although apparently the breathing component comes from the Russian Orthodox Church's monastic prayer rituals.

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From: SamboSteve
Date: 05/06/04 07:29 AM

Hi all,
I have read most of this thread...good one! Just a personal note on Fedor's punching style. This is classic Combat Sambo as I was taught it. All the comments throughout the thread regarding it's typical nature in Russian/former Soviet regions and folk styles rings true to me. My teacher used to talk about this type of punching all the time. This type of hooking punch, aside from coming in from great unfamiliar angles, can also work very well to open up an opponant's cover. We train to use these looping overhands to get inside and pull away the arms of someone who is classically covered up tight or to strike and drive the arm down and in for a throw entrance. I loved when I watching Fedor use it. I have a few classically trained boxers in my school and once they adapt to the "strangness" of the movements, they incorporate it nicely.

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From: Ausgepicht
Date: 05/06/04 07:58 AM

Nice info SS!!

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From: LEMon
Date: 05/08/04 02:40 AM

SS could give more details dude sounds interesting?

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From: SamboSteve
Date: 05/08/04 12:10 PM

It is solid stuff...we work it all the time. These are tough to describe in words...
Imagine your opponant is covered up real tight - hands to face, elbows to waist. A downward twisting overhand can enter the small gap in his arms better than a straight out hook. It is the "downward and twisting" motion that gets in. The strike usually hits the ear, Mandibular area, or cheek bone...the notion is that the strike is really only in passing as you enter his cover. It does not stop at his face. Continue the motion down and weave your arm in for a grip - under hook his arm, wrap to his back, or down to legs for a pick up for example. When executing this type (or any) of overhand, be sure to keep you shoulder shrugged to cover your chin and jugular.

Another variation is more of a hooking type strike where you continue the motion down and back in a circular move - to hook his arm away from his face. This leaves him open for a cross or secondary strike from the same arm you hooked with.

Does this make sense?

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_________________
Stephen Koepfer
President, American Sambo Association

05-22-2004, 09:35 AM	#3
njudo Administrator FIGHTER Join Date: May 2004 Location: S.I.,N.Y. Posts: 139	Posted by sambosteve From: Biggy Date: 05/04/04 02:19 PM Although this punching style gives Fedor alot of power when he ground and pounds, I am not sure its the only reason for how hard he hits from the guard. Kharitonov also showed hard ground and pound when he fought Cory Peterson, but his punches were a little more straight. I think Russian Top Team spends a good amount of time in their training on hitting pads on the ground. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ghost In regards to what we've been talking about. I've read over some of the debates here, and I'm rather impressed by the insights of various users here. In MMA, we're presented with variety on every scale, and striking is no different. Thanks to those of you who are as wise in this, as we're in a good position to educate others here. Fedor's punching style isn't something I'd call european, or even foreign, by any means. Rather, boxing in and of itself... the art of throwing the hook, the cross, and the jab, footwork, moving, etc... has become somewhat Americanized, and with that, has brought many elements to the art of striking that have become standard, as they've been proven effective time and time again by athletes long preceeding us. "Range striking", as I've call it, can be used effectively in a variety of ways, mainly in combination with effective footwork and positioning, or as an "X-factor" in a combination that takes your opponent's eyes off of your attack for even a second, such as momentum-driven hooks. The processes for building up strength and speed with these punches are different than that of the high-repetition stress workouts we conventionally do in boxing. Rather, when training effective range striking, I'm finding myself doing sets wide-grip (pull-ups and push-ups, benches and militaries), as well as resistance (rubber band) repetition workouts. Reason? Compact strength (tight style... think boxing) is distributed from one place, while range strength can come from anywhere at anytime. By no means do I consider range striking an effective method in all situations, but in instances where your opponent is retreating or backed into a corner, there's no better way to effectivly isolate your opponent than to start throwing bombs from where he doesn't see them. More often than not, it scares him into rigidity, and sets up the fight-winner (kick, punch, knockdown) in a striking situation. There was an argument earlier about how someone saw short hooks and straight punches as a quick and effective counter to this style... and that is very, very true... if you walk into the flurry of a puncher throwing wing bombs and looping punches, yer asking for it. However, say you go toe to toe enough to land a good one and stumble your opponent... it may be a good time to pivot and dig in to one side, and let er rip from where he doesn't see it coming. The ones you don't see ALWAYS hurt more than the ones you do. You'll notice Chuck used this style YEARS before Fedor unleashed upon Pride with it. You HAVE to know that Pitmaster's been workin it. ................................................................................................... From: Ausgepicht Date: 05/05/04 09:03 AM Ghost: I respectfully disagree that Chuck throws his punches like that. Chuck swings and lobs, Fedor casts and waves. Also, as for it not being foreign...casting and waving have been a part of Russian MAs for hundreds of years. I can count the times of have seen Americans/Westerns use casting and waving on one finger. Otherwise, nice post! ............................................................................................... From: Ghost Date: 05/05/04 12:03 PM "I respectfully disagree that Chuck throws his punches like that. Chuck swings and lobs, Fedor casts and waves. Also, as for it not being foreign...casting and waving have been a part of Russian MAs for hundreds of years." It's not that I'm so much saying that the difference between the styles is based upon geography,... what I AM saying, however, is that "conventional striking" as we know it has tended to lean more towards compact stylings, which leaves little room for expansive understanding of techniques such as casting, or range striking. Hence why I said compact striking is more "Americanized"... people thinkin Striking, they think Boxing most of the time, not Russian Military. Boxing coaches would bust my chops till the bitter end if they saw me throwing some of the punches Fedor and Chuck throw, and if you really narrow it down there Ausgepicht, you'll see the two styles aren't much different at all. Chuck is a little more deliberate with his straight punches than Fedor, but other than that, I see very few nuances between the two essentials in their technique. Good debate though, BRO. .................................................................................................... From: CANADIAN Date: 05/05/04 05:52 PM This is a very good thread, and shows how even mma fans are starting to see stengths and weaknesses of styles etc. And not just a guy just punching. But to analize what is actually going on. I really feel that some of the best strikers out thier have been using this style or somthing similar to it, like Fedor, Igor Vovchanchyn, Liddel a bit and even a little of tank abbot. This might be one of the best striking pucnching styles for a street fight since it seems to take out guys so fast with so much power etc. I feel though that it will also be a reason of Fedors down fall. someone will catch him while he is doing those looping punches coz it leaves his head open for brief periods. And this may very well be the way to beat him. S straight puncher like Mino might be able to pull it off if he continues to work on his boxing skills. Has anyone ever been succesfull in pro boxing with this style ever before? and what happens when a boxer with this style fights another boxer? Since thier are not any pro boxers out thier that are succesfull with this style, I would think it might have it's weakness thier. .................................................................................................. From: Biggy Date: 05/05/04 12:57 PM sorry to hijack this thread guys but watch the last few seconds of this vid... it has guys doing some group sparring outside..... its some funny lookin shit although I imagine there is a purpose for it. ............................................................................................... From: poobear Date: 05/06/04 06:51 AM The guys on the video aren't doing systema, although the striking elements are common to both styles. That's another style of Russian martial art called (iirc) Slaviano Gretska'y Borba (spelling sucks). Means 'hill wrestling'. They claim inheritors of a Russian peasant tradition. A 'folk style'. Systema (by which I mean systema as taught by Mssrs. Vasiliev and Ryabko) is a synthetic, imo, in that it includes elements from many traditions. It is a military style, although apparently the breathing component comes from the Russian Orthodox Church's monastic prayer rituals. ................................................................................................ From: SamboSteve Date: 05/06/04 07:29 AM Hi all, I have read most of this thread...good one! Just a personal note on Fedor's punching style. This is classic Combat Sambo as I was taught it. All the comments throughout the thread regarding it's typical nature in Russian/former Soviet regions and folk styles rings true to me. My teacher used to talk about this type of punching all the time. This type of hooking punch, aside from coming in from great unfamiliar angles, can also work very well to open up an opponant's cover. We train to use these looping overhands to get inside and pull away the arms of someone who is classically covered up tight or to strike and drive the arm down and in for a throw entrance. I loved when I watching Fedor use it. I have a few classically trained boxers in my school and once they adapt to the "strangness" of the movements, they incorporate it nicely. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ausgepicht Date: 05/06/04 07:58 AM Nice info SS!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEMon Date: 05/08/04 02:40 AM SS could give more details dude sounds interesting? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SamboSteve Date: 05/08/04 12:10 PM It is solid stuff...we work it all the time. These are tough to describe in words... Imagine your opponant is covered up real tight - hands to face, elbows to waist. A downward twisting overhand can enter the small gap in his arms better than a straight out hook. It is the "downward and twisting" motion that gets in. The strike usually hits the ear, Mandibular area, or cheek bone...the notion is that the strike is really only in passing as you enter his cover. It does not stop at his face. Continue the motion down and weave your arm in for a grip - under hook his arm, wrap to his back, or down to legs for a pick up for example. When executing this type (or any) of overhand, be sure to keep you shoulder shrugged to cover your chin and jugular. Another variation is more of a hooking type strike where you continue the motion down and back in a circular move - to hook his arm away from his face. This leaves him open for a cross or secondary strike from the same arm you hooked with. Does this make sense? ........................................................................................................ _________________ Stephen Koepfer President, American Sambo Association